A podcast about Cell-based Meat and Future Food

Ira van Eelen

Ira van Eelen

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Alex Shirazi: 00:00 Thanks for joining us on the cultured meat and future food show. We’re back from our fall break and ready to kick into gear. We’re excited to have Ira van Eelen the guest for today’s episode.
Alex Shirazi: 00:13 Ira van Eelen is the cofounder of kind earth tech and respect farm. She is a designer with a demonstrated history of working in event design, healthcare, ICT marketing and the think tank industry. The legacy as the daughter of Wilhem van Eelen and 40 years of clean cultured cultivated just in vitro meat history is converted into speaking about the potential of an understanding the urgency of this innovation so that the audience can embrace this idea. She is proud to be able to work on two passions, cultured meat as the legacy from her father and preventative oral care as a gift to herself as one of the organizers of kind earth tech. Next year, KET will be hosting events that take place in Paris, Singapore, Amsterdam, London and back in San Francisco in early 2021 this recording took place in Maastricht, in the Netherlands during the fifth scientific international conference on culture. I really wanted to start out and say that you were involved with the cell cultured meat industry in a very uni que way. So tell us about your involvement and when you started devoting time to the topic.
Speaker 2: 01:28 Actually, quite recently, only the last years I’ve been devoting time to the topic and through my father who started talking about this and thinking about his and actually working on culture cultured need, which was named in vitro media at the time. And even that, I am not even sure what it was, the very first name that he thought of, but that was in the 1980s. And I was at the time, probably let’s say 14 or 15 years old. And suddenly my father was not a scientist who had some medical training, but he had worked to get her, was my mother and creating very nice and well-designed restaurants, hotels, stuff like that. And in my view was more of a sort of let’s say businessmen and and suddenly he started talking to, in his eyes are interesting people because he read about them and it was, had something to do with STEM cell research.
Speaker 2: 02:29 And suddenly he started talking about creating meat out of STEM cells. And I was a teenager and most people probably remember not being very interested in what your parents do. They’re these old people did you don’t listen to and you find them annoying. And I wasn’t any different. I found my very father, very annoying. And then when he was talking about this topic over and over and over and over again for the next 40 years, it felt a bit as if I went to church. So I’ve been to the cultured need church for over 40 years, I think. And that wasn’t always fun. So it has been very time consuming in my life. But to be quite honest, to actually work on this topic that came about because somebody gave me a call telling me that they had bought my father’s cultured meat patents and telling me to look at a film.
Speaker 2: 03:29 And that was about two years after my father had passed away and I had cleaned out his office and not even knowing whether I was looking at a pattern or something important and feeling very anxious about cleaning out his amazing office that he was in and where he worked in for so many years and also uncultured me and then I put it in boxes and I didn’t think about it for about two years until that phone call and the film of Ian, the chicken walking around, that was the film that was the film. Oh, interesting. Okay. Yeah. Did you get a call from like just now? I got an email and I really do remember getting that email and looking in my [inaudible] books in, in vitro meat or probably it was another name. I’m not sure if, but wanting me to look at something and I didn’t want to because I was so fed up and disappointed about the fact that we’d done a lot and my father had done a lot, but it wasn’t in the supermarket.
Speaker 2: 04:32 So at that point I was in a sort of state, like this is probably one of those great ideas that we will find out too late that we should have done that. Then suddenly finding an email about his was not the first thing I wanted to do. So I didn’t react to the email at first. And then I got a call from judge Dedrick and told me, look at the film. So I did and I teared up because that was the total package of what my father and I and a small group of people as far as I wasn’t aware of at the time, had been talking about. So seeing something that was top of mind for so many years and exactly what my father had thought of being portrayed in such a very nice way. Because the guy making that film is Colby Mackery and he’s, he’s a wizard and he gets it totally.
Speaker 2: 05:29 So it got to me. So I replied to Josh, you can call me anytime. And that’s really the only reply I gave. And then he called me back and he started to explain culture mean to me. And I was really like, hold on, you’re not going to explain culture meeting, I’m going to tell you what it is. And that, and that’s got into really lively and fun and very nice conversation. And then him being so enthusiastic and this film actually being there made me aware of the fact that I had missed out. So I’ve told many people, I really felt as if I was being pulled back into this, like as if I had been in a sort of hibernation. And so since that phone call being totally moved, I’ve been at the computer finding out what was going on. And then shortly after debt I found out there was the search cultured needs convention here in the streets where we are now.
Speaker 2: 06:30 And I called Mark post and I said, Mark, I have no idea what I’m going to do there, but can I come? And I said, yes, you can come, but you will have to say something. Otherwise I can just invite you and me saying something on stage. That’s weird. Well, we’ll see [Laughter] I can’t promise. This was not last year, but the year before. And I also remember Mark telling me like, well, it’s very scientific. Are you sure you can sit in on that? And I said, well, I’ve been sitting in on dentistry conventions like this for over 30 years, so I think I’ll manage and being here in Maastricht two years ago, shortly after I had seen that film, that was an amazing happening for me because there were almost a hundred people in one place that for the first time in my life I didn’t have to explain what cultured meat was.
Speaker 2: 07:30 And up to that point I have been explaining what cultured meat is, what the routes to the shops would be, what it would mean for farmers, how it would look like in the show. I’ve done that for for 30 years, 40 years, and to be in a room suddenly it was all people that were also being very nice to me because I was this daughter of, yeah, I think I was hurting from just grinning and smiling and being so overly Abby and then meeting some amazing people that I clicked was instantly and seeing what was actually being done. Also seeing how much work there still had to be done. That’s how I got back into it. So that’s actually kind of what I wanted to ask next. Was you, what have you seen over the last 20, 30 years? I guess that is not really something that’s being discussed now.
Speaker 2: 08:28 A lot is being discussed, but we are using different words, different names that changes with naming ever issue before? Oh yes. One of the last times my father was on stage was at an event that I helped organize at Nimo in 2010 we organized, it was actually called pure meat convention. Was that a term back then? That was a term for awhile. I think I’ve been through about 20 names in these last decades. Yeah. And every name makes sense at that time. So clean meat made sense to the people at that time. I didn’t like the term. It was actually my first ever conversation was Bruce telling him, I don’t like this term. We like, who are you?
Speaker 2: 09:21 But right now they have cultivated me, which I like very much, but I am sure that there will be another name in about two or three years that will make sense to the people at depths a moment. And I’m totally fine with it. But I do remember my father getting onstage and I think at that time he was 88 and he took the mic from the moderator and the moderator actually gave him the mic, which was really nice. And that was a moderator that wouldn’t have done that normally. But he sort of got it and my father went there and took to Mike and said, come on, people stop talking about how to name it. It is just me. And this is the story I told Josh Tetrick about my father because Josh invited me to come over to San Francisco and I felt like I was a sponsored.
Speaker 2: 10:12 He wanted to get everything about my body so he was not interested in me in a home. He was interested in the story of my father and how on earth my father had had this idea and actually started working on it. And just Josh was sort of fair enough to say I want it to have that. I’m jealous about the idea that somebody else had this idea. This should have been my idea. And how did he came about that idea? So I told Josh that my father said it was just meat and in Dutch you would say this one flavor, I’m not even sure what it had was an English or Dutch speaking convention, but I do remember my father being sort of friendly, annoyed about the fact that everybody was talking about how to name it and what did the public would get that.
Speaker 2: 10:56 And he said, come on, what we are talking about and what we are making is supposed to be just meat, not something else. So why would you give it an under name? And then everybody was nodding at that moment. Anyone back to a seed and nothing really dreadful happen. So one of my favorite names is of course just meet. Oh, just meet. Yeah, that is because that’s what it is. It’s just me in English. You have the, the advantage that it is on one way. It’s just me, but it’s also just as in it’s, it’s, it’s the right kind of meat. So especially in English, I liked that name a lot, so I hope that eventually this will be become just meat, just chicken, just fish, just frame whatever because that is what it’s supposed to be. But I don’t really mind whatever name is going to be given. I think the end, the public will decide what to call it.
Alex Shirazi: 11:55 So I’m excited to talk about KET or kinder at tech, but before we do, yesterday we were talking about how your father’s background was actually not in the sciences and he really brought people together to work on this technology. Can you tell us a little bit about that and how you know, what he would do and how he would find people interested or maybe even how he would motivate people to work on this technology?
Speaker 2: 12:22 My father was one of the best storytellers, I think in the world. He could even talk about dreadful things happening in the second world war as if it was a great story, a book. He was very convinced himself that this was the route to go, a a meet. So it was a genuine conviction that producing meat in a different way would be the way to the future. For me as my father, I always said my father was a bit weird. Other people say my father was a visionary. That’s nice. I think in a way that’s probably true. But he was also very charming and he could talk for hours. And I think he was very good in finding out what was interesting in his story to the people that he was talking to. But the first 10 years of, of this question has been for him to find people willing to not only listen to him, but actually be brave enough to go work with him or actually do something.
Speaker 2: 13:28 So where he went out in 1980 probably was just mind you, there was no internet, there was no Google. So how do you find somebody? And so he was reading up, he found names. Then he somehow found phone numbers and that in itself was time consuming. Then you would find an address. And then you would drive to a university or a doctor or a scientist in a lab. And there you were not being a scientist yourself, always being perceived as if you were, because he was very knowledgeable on the thing. So, and you don’t walk around with your PhD on your chest like I’m this or that. So a lot of people have always assumed that he was a doctor or a scientist. Even if you go to Wikipedia, they say, this is this doctor and I’ve tried to change it, but it’s, you’re not right.
Speaker 2: 14:24 And I, and who are you? And I’ve said, yeah, well this is all online. So I’ve tried to correct it because I think it’s actually very interesting that someone outside of science got, so let’s say even in a positive way, obsessed about this idea that he wanted to educate scientists around his idea and wanted to have them go with him in this idea. But the 1980s so, so to his 10 years was spent on getting the right people to understand what his idea was. Use the STEM cell research and techniques solely used for medical reasons by doctors in hospitals or in labs and try them to get them to create stakes for supermarkets and for my father, that was the total logical next step. You make something and I’ll send that, sell it to the supermarket. When you’re trained like a doctor and your career path is something your, your career part is totally away from a supermarket.
Speaker 2: 15:32 That’s the one thing your parents didn’t want you to do. Then an elderly gentleman because when my father started his, he was already mid fifties probably in his sixties that’s where he started. Yeah. Yeah. He started when, I think he, when he was 54 55 so this was definitely a sort of second career. Even though he didn’t see it as a career, he’s, I think he saw it as a mission or, or something he had to accomplish, but he found people crazy enough to put money into it and to get people to write down on a piece of paper that this was actually a feasible idea. So I remember that he was so happy that he got a sort of written proof of concept in 1993 and that started that, got some balls rolling and then he found a couple of scientists willing to put their careers and their good name on the line to work with him.
Speaker 2: 16:37 But my father promised him money to do research. He also found somebody to write down this world famous patent because he didn’t write it himself. He got some buddy to write down his ideas in the right words. And he also privately funded that everything up to that point was totally privately funded. And he wrote the patents so that he could get companies in corporations and the government funding because at that time here in the Netherlands, we had a system that you could get a groms or you could get subsidized if you had a combination of universities and companies working on a specific idea. Well, in the universities he got some people I think Amsterdam university yo sticks here, the muscles he was supposed to look at how to feed yourselves. There was somebody looking at how would consumer acceptance be and industry, he found a Coraline voter.
Speaker 2: 17:41 She was at that time working on creating heart valves and she was super excited about is and she totally got this. And the other big hero was Pedro [inaudible]. He was working at a meat processing company at that time. And at that time my father was in his seventies and one of the things my father would do was just show up at somebody’s office that he wanted to talk to without having an appointment. So Peter [inaudible] was one of those people kind enough to willing to listen to a 70 year old men telling quite outrageous story. And this when Peter was in the meat industry. Yeah. And so my father had the idea, but there are so many crucial people in this whole story. So for me, when I’m around here, there are two heroes of course here. One SmartPost, everybody knows him, but the other one is paid for status because he and I knew my dad, so, and he would be at the door and he was 70 and he was going to tell you that you were supposed as to meat company here, make meat out of cells.
Speaker 2: 19:00 And that was, let’s say I think 1997 1999 and for Peter to actually listen to that and be so polite and so friendly and actually getting it and then trying within Sara Lee as a small Dutch country trying to convince Sarah Lee within its own company, like, I think we should actually do this with this gentleman. That’s brave. That’s huge. That’s huge. That’s brave. So, and every time I tell Peter how much I think he’s in heroin in my book, you’re right. Don’t do that. But it’s, so there for me, there are kind people that were nice to my father, willing to listen and see that there was something special going on there. But without those people, nothing would have happened or it would have taken so much more time. And then in 2002, this group of people got 2 million from the Dutch government and then some research started happening specifically army cultured need.
Speaker 2: 20:09 And it led my father to be totally frustrated because at that time he didn’t really understand, I think how science works. You get funding and then you first finish what you were working on and then you, Oh yeah, we can go on with something else. So he saw the 2 million would be used solely for cultured meat and everybody would be on it. And the reality of most research money is, is that a lot of the money just evaporates and only a small amount of that huge amount of money actually went into the research. And the other thing that actually happened was that Carla and Baotou who was in [inaudible] university, she got sick and then totally by chance, Mark post was there and he was, I think at that time, Craig knew it, name wafer, but he did similar research and he took over. So suddenly Mark post had to deal with my father who was at that time, even older was not a scientist, had gotten everybody does money, but there was a huge respect, but also there was not the same language and my father was in a hurry and that must’ve been very hard for everybody around him working with him because he wanted to make it happen and everybody else wanted to do good research.
Speaker 2: 21:38 And that’s not always aligned. Being in a hurry and doing really good research. It’s hard to make science move fast. Absolutely then. And so people ask me, aren’t you proud of what you’ve, I’m, I’m super proud of what my father did. I also believed that if you look at what he actually did, doing all these miles to have all these conversations, trying to give in so many people, the stamina to do this for so many years, it’s, that’s amazing. And I don’t think anybody else could have done that. So it’s not that my father discovered cultured meat. Yes, he did discover it on his own, but there were many other people that also sort of the idea. But that he actually went out and pursued this. I don’t think anybody else could have done that. And he achieved so much, even though he never ate it.
Speaker 2: 22:31 I have now, but he never ate it. And the only thing that is really sad about it, dad, up to when he got sick, eventually died. He was still frustrated about the fact that it wasn’t there yet. And he has never taken the time to see what he actually did achieve. I can see that everybody around him could see that. But the sad part of the story is that I don’t see my father realized or was satisfied with what he had achieved and he, I think he should have been, but I don’t think he was. Shifting gears to kinder earth tech, tell us a little bit about what cat is and how it got started. You have amazing people in the world and one of them is Olivia folks. Gabon and I met Olivia folks coupon at a sort of after party after the GFI a conference.
Speaker 2: 23:28 And I had nothing to do and there was up there. There’s a party at Olivia’s, no idea who Olivia was, nothing to do. So I took an Uber and went to plays and there was this nice group of people hanging around in her garden and I had a short meeting, was her around taking out the trash and finding out that taking out the trash at Olivia’s place is something very specific because this goes there, that goes there, that goes there. And I found her totally fun. And then I told her I was from Amsterdam and then I got introduced to her husband. And Amsterdam is amazing, which is true, but so we got talking. Luckily I got her phone number and a couple of months later I called her and saying, I have no idea what I’m supposed to do in this sphere. Do you have an idea?
Speaker 2: 24:20 And in a way only Olivia can do that. She said, girl, you’re going to be so busy. I said, okay. And then two days later she said, I think you’re going to be head of Europe. And the only thing I said was, sure, if you think I’m going to be head of Europe, no idea what I’m going to do there, but I’m going to be head of Europe. And then I called her rec. Okay. No idea why I’m head of Europe. Not no idea what I’m head of Europe off. But yes, and you should come to San Francisco. We’re doing an event there and we’re opening it together. Mind you at that time I had been on stage several time telling the story of my father and cultured, meet him, whatever. But opening a show in San Francisco to get her was Olivia was not top of mind like, huh, okay.
Speaker 2: 25:11 But I did go, I stayed with Olivia. We went to the venue and I broke my arm. So I stayed in so I didn’t go to our first venue and we had extensive talks about it and it was at that time it was the alternative protein show and everybody was talking about alternative proteins. And I liked it because you have my background, which is cultivated need. But at this point I am super excited about the fact that there is an alternative protein field and not only cultivated need and then I think they released me from the ER at five o’clock and I went back to the venue and they were closing up and the closing up remarks was, well we might do next kit events here and there and this and that and the only thing I actually did there was raised my left arm because that was the one I didn’t break and say, Hey, aren’t you forgetting Amsterdam?
Speaker 2: 26:11 And then there was like, yes, absolutely. Let’s do Amsterdam. Oh, fun. Amsterdam, home of cultured meat. Okay, okay. Then I went back to Amsterdam. I went to MIMO, which is a science museum where we did the first ever cultural need event in 2010 and I knew that they would have a future food exhibit and I thought why not combining I at this future food exhibit? I was actually planning to exhibit the first ever cultivated meat machine as an ex, as an art piece. I designed that and I wanted to have that in that, in that museum. And they were super excited about doing a show in Amsterdam. And so I called Olivia had said, Hey, you’re a head of Europe is calling you and your kit next cat event is going to be Amsterdam. And that’s how that came about. And so why on earth it is called kit, I have no idea in the KET organization things just happen.
Speaker 2: 27:18 Somebody has a good idea and if somebody just pursues that idea, it is there. So it’s not that we plan something for the next five years or we have extensive plans for whatever. No, we have a good idea. And if you actually make it happen, that’s how it happens. And I think that what it stands for is kind ERs tech. I’m a firm believer that humans are technical beans. In fact, that we are talking the fact that we are cooking. There’s so many things that are techniques to further us along and what do we always do that in the right way or the wrong way? That’s another discussion. But we adapt techniques as if it’s our nature. Where as we do also adept techniques that are not very kind to this earth. I think we are capable of creating techniques, did archive, choose earth and where we are a part of this earth also kind to ourselves but to all beings.
Speaker 2: 28:17 I like the idea that you have kind of earth tech and that applies in this instance to the largest industry in the world, which is food, which is not surprisingly of course the largest because that’s what we live off. So when it surprises people that food is actually such a large industry, I’m always a bit like, yep, what else? But there are other huge industries which are at this moment not kind to this earth like fashion. So you could think of cat being a platform that creates an event or an idea or something around fashion or around kids or around men right now for instance masculinity is, is perceived as something that is quite toxic. Most things perceived as manly are not very kind to this earth. If you could make that look differently, that could be a catch topic. So we could think of so many things around kind of this tech, but right now we had to kind of [inaudible] alternative protein and dairy show in Amsterdam and I’m a designer and I designed the event in such a way that you would stay awake.
Speaker 2: 29:33 The chance of you actually learning something was actually there. So not just taking away a few things, but taking almost everything that we had to offer. And I created it in such a way that the first day was head. So we pumped your head full of stuff, information. Then the next day was breakout sessions on boats going into the museum, being fully inspired in different ways. So that was for me the hard part. And then the third day was hands on you, you could do on tables, there was actually a TemPay pay workshop. So if you were really fed up with learning, then you could go and make your own Tempe in the museum. So it was all around inspiring you to take home and do something with what we had to offer. And this was open or is open to scientists to the general public. If they’re interested in specific group, whether they’re vegetarian or flexitarians farmers.
Speaker 2: 30:37 The theme of this cat for instance, was how can farmers do business with new techniques. And it was around circularity. So I actually told all these amazing speakers that I admire and were there only for content and not because they paid us to be on stage. Because that’s another very specific thing about kit. Nobody gets paid. I don’t get paid. And telling them, you are not allowed to use your carbon footprint slides. I’m not interested in those. Where it beyond that we are beyond carbon footprint slides because that’s linear and we are in around the world and it’s a circular system. And by this time I want you to start thinking about your place in a circular system. So where’s your stuff going to be made? Where’s your weight’s going to go? And so either you take off your carbon footprint and I want you to be honest about the fact where you are in your research or your thinking or your model around circularity.
Speaker 2: 31:42 And if you’re not there, please say so because there will be students at the venue. And maybe they will pick it up and see that as something they want to work on. So telling the world that you are not there yet or that you can do something or you haven’t thought about it, please be Frank about that because then we can help you out if you don’t tell us. We don’t know. And that worked out very well. Every speaker was kind enough sometimes grinning to me because I was moderating a lot of the, yes, an era has asked us and and so some new content was also created there. And also I asked everybody to think whether their new techniques or their innovation was something that could be a possible work model for farmers in this world. One of the things that came out of it, most of what people are working are, are possibilities for farmers or converting farm land or converting farms themselves into supporting working with these innovations. I was super excited about that.
Alex Shirazi: 32:49 That’s cool. And I saw the photos of the cultivated meet founders on the boats giving presentations. What was that experience like?
Speaker 2: 32:58 Well, I am from Amsterdam. We’re a Delta country. We build dikes to keep the water out. But 70% of our country’s actually below sea water. So water and being on water is something that is very familiar to me. To make matters worse. I live on a converted freighter, so I live on boats and I do a lot on the water. And one of the magical things that happens when you put somebody on a boat is you can’t get off. So, so you actually push an extreme form of networking. Well, we all know these events these days are actually, well the content is nice, but everything is for networking purposes and to put people on boats, sometimes even squash together, listening to inspiring stories that makes it really exciting for the listener. But also for the speaker before we went out on these boats and those were historic channel boats, they could hold 50 to 60 people and we had three rounds so they could choose.
Speaker 2: 34:11 So they were on three different boats. They had three different topics they could listen to. So there was some freewill there and they went through the canals of Amsterdam. And usually we look at the canals of Amsterdam as something that is for the tourists because it looks all nice. But before that I had a small conversation with everybody. There is, don’t look at it as a tourist, but this was a technical system. And for instance the techniques that we have these days was that this was filthy. This was dirty. And if you would fall into the Amsterdam to nails, you would get sick. And these days, even our Queens swims in these canals. So these canals are made as a technical system to make the city work. And we’ve improved that system nowadays so that every child and every person can just jump into the Amsterdam canals, have a swim and nothing’s wrong.
Speaker 2: 35:08 And everything in Amsterdam is, it’s the history of the city that we make systems. We humans make systems to do something better all the time. So I gave them an extra mission to look at the Amsterdam canals, not as a tourist but as a solution that worked at the time and that we’ve also improved and that we have to now listen to all these stories on these boats and look at them as the next best solution or possibility or technique for something. Improve meat production. Yeah. But we also had air protein there. We also had funding there. We also had a LG there, food production, food production. Exactly. And better food production and fairer food production and kinder food production.
Alex Shirazi: 36:03 And I do like K E T kind of take it. It really does like when you hear it, you know exactly what it means and you almost also think about what you can immediately improve when you, when you hear about that kind of earth and then [inaudible]
Speaker 2: 36:18 Well it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s nice if you had to say that because for me it’s now something that is top of mind. Okay. Cat and hydrostatic. And these days I don’t have to explain cultured meat anymore. I have to explain kit, which is okay. I like to explain stuff. Yeah. But it’s nice for me to, to understand that you at least understand why we’ve called it a kinder is tech and I feel very comfortable with the term and alternative protein. That’s something else that I’ve come accustomed to. But those were words I didn’t use three or four years ago. So in a, in a way, I’m relatively new to the sphere and right now I’m I’m 56 now about the age of my father Stella started cultivated mean. So I’m, I’m really like, yeah, let’s see what I’m going to do. Not the same thing at all because I’m a different person, but for instance, designing events that are inspirational to people is something I can do and I like to do that because these are important topics.
Alex Shirazi: 37:20 I want to wrap up by saying, is there room for cultured meat at all? Yup.
Speaker 2: 37:27 I’ve been around eating meat for most of my life. Diving deeper into all of this made me somebody that doesn’t want to eat it anymore, but I totally understand why people eat meat. If you give somebody, and, and this is every sales person knows this. If the marketing person knows and somebody for instance, like in Nora scientist gnosis, if you have to choice of two, it’s an either or question. So, and you use a very fast decision mode. Like, okay, I’m gonna do this or that and you don’t actually think at that moment. So you have all this knowledge about the horrible conditions that are a part of animal agriculture or any animal products. As soon as you give somebody the choice of three, so plant based meat, cultivated need or conventional meat, he actually has to think about what he’s going to do and he has to choose.
Speaker 2: 38:28 Whereas if you have the choice of two, you don’t, you don’t actually choose. You just do what you’re, it’s instinctive and you do what you’re, what you’re accustomed to. If you actually think about cultivated meat, what it is and especially what it is not, it’s not harmful. It’s not painful, it’s not bad for you. The chance that something in there that is dirty or whatever it is, is minimal or not at all possible. So everybody will understand, Hey, this is, this is great. I, I’m, I’m going to choose that. But I also think that in the long run cultivated me to a CRO. We also make us eat more plant based stuff. So it is first role will be changing animal suffering to just meat. But the fact that we will be at that point adapting something like that will also make us think more toward plant-based alternatives because we don’t need to eat so much meat at all.
Speaker 2: 39:39 The sad thing about meat is that in Asia where they have a nice diet of 10 to 15% of animal proteins is now shifting towards what we do in Europe and what we do in the or what they do in America, which is really sad if it would stay as is. We still have a challenge of feeding a lot of people, but the fact that the growth is expecting in Asia, that is the scary part. And I’ve known that since I was 14, 15 because I remember my father and his friends doing a sort of math on a piece of paper. Like, okay, if the Chinese are also all going to eat meat, we will need four planets and wow, we will not have any polar caps. I know this for 40 years. So right now if I see all these people talking about climate change, I really like, yeah, hello.
Speaker 2: 40:32 We’ve known this for years and nobody did anybody see. So the other thing that is very worrying to me is I hope all of this is not just fashionable and that the, the, the current situation where for the first time ethics is fashionable. Not to everybody, but it is fashionable. Essex has never been fashionable right now. It is, I hope that is going to last long enough for culture needs to come to fruition and to actually be in the shops and provide a choice for people to say, Hey, I have this choice and I have to, I have the possibilities to think about it. And then I’m quite convinced that the narrative of the product cultivated meat will be so obvious to people that they are, they will be very willing to eat it. Why on earth wouldn’t you? You’re going to learn more about cat at kind earth tech.
Speaker 2: 41:27 Yup. IRA, do you have any last insights for our listeners today? Last thoughts or, I want everybody to think on how they can help make this happen. And if something is not clear, ask the question why it’s not clear. So don’t assume but ask because asking questions around something that you don’t understand or you don’t believe in or have questions about, that is communication. And we need a lot of communication about this because if all of these people are now working on all these new techniques, but we don’t have to write questions from the people that this is for a, we could do something wrong. So if you’re a doubter or you think this is wrong or we should do something else, please tell me. Because then I can either tell you yes, but these are, this is why we’re doing this. Or I can be educated about something that I’m missing. So if you’re a doubter or you’re a hater or you don’t believe in this, please tell me. Thank you so much for sharing your insights on the future. Yeah. Thank you.
Speaker 3: 42:47 [Inaudible]
Alex Shirazi: 42:49 Thanks for joining us on this episode. If you know anyone making waves in the cultured meat industry, please reach out@futurefoodshow.com.

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